Our Origin Stories

Jacob Wood: This is Beyond Alt Text, the podcast for people who care about accessibility. I'm Jacob Wood.

Nicole L'Etoile: And I'm Nicole L'Etoile. Let's get into it.

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Nicole L'Etoile: Alright, so for our first episode, we wanted you to get to know us, tell you a little bit of our story, why we're here, why we wanted to start this podcast, and what got us, interested in teaming up together. So, Jacob, do you want to start and tell us your story? What got you here into digital accessibility?

Jacob Wood: Yeah, I'd be happy to. So for me, accessibility goes way back. I have progressive vision loss, with, like, 3 or 4 different. types of vision conditions, retinitis pigmentosa, glaucoma, cataracts, high-grade myopia. I've had I've had glasses since I was 18 months old, and then slowly lost my vision over time. And when I was a teenager, I started really to see, like, these little floaties in my vision, and we started going to the doctor every 6 weeks or so. And I was seeing specialists and learned that I was going to have vision loss for the rest of my life. At that point, I was already, like, a massive computer geek. I was, learning to program websites and code with HTML and do all of the nerdy things that kids, with computers do in the late 90s, early 2000s.

And, it's, really came down, in terms of me getting into accessibility, to the fact that I… I started losing agency over the things that I like to do. I lost the ability to play video games, and I started playing board games instead. I lost the ability to see the computer the way that I used to. And, I had to learn new ways of interacting with it. I started using high contrast mode on Windows, but when I did that, a bunch of things on the screen would disappear. So, I realized that there was… there had to be a better way, and I just didn't know what it was. Eventually, I learned what that better way was. I learned how to use assistive technology, like ZoomText, and later NVDA, the screen reader software. And I started learning about accessibility because I kept running into these barriers where I wouldn't be able to read a PDF, or I wouldn't be able to read a website with my screen reader, and I didn't know why.

But I knew that there had to be a way to solve it, because there… not every website that I encountered, or every PDF that I read, had these same issues. So there must have been a way to make things more accessible, and what I was encountering just wasn't following best practice. So at the time, I also was getting more into tabletop board games and role-playing games, and I decided that that was going to be my first area of focus. I started learning how to make PDFs more accessible because I was playing a lot of role-playing games, and those come in the form of books, and at the time, that was PDFs and e-books. I… didn't know how to teach other people how to make things more accessible. I just knew at the time to tell them that they needed to be more accessible to somebody like me.

But because other people in the gaming industry also didn't know how to do it, somebody had to teach them, and I figured that might as well be me. So I started learning how to make my own PDFs, and to do so with accessibility in mind. And I started publishing Tutorials on how to do that. I started doing accessibility testing for other publishers so that they could come to me with their PDFs and get me to explain to them what was wrong or what they needed to fix. And eventually I published a bunch of material that helped really move the needle forward in the tabletop game industry. But that was… that only takes you so far, because that industry is really small. When I started my life as a learning designer a couple of years ago in 2022.

I also realized that the learning design industry has all of the same issues that I had already tried to solve with gaming. Just with different tools. So Storyline and Rise and all of these other tools that learning designers are using end up making inaccessible content for learners. And I had had plenty of run-ins with inaccessible learning content over the course of my years at Wells Fargo and Kentucky Retirement System, where I'd worked before, and I knew that this e-learning content also could do better. So, since I was in the learning design field, I decided, well, I guess it's on me now to learn how to make learning content more accessible, and that's what I did. So, I think I'm probably one of the world's, foremost authorities on Storyline.

for somebody who's never actually used it, in terms of accessibility. So, Storyline is not an accessible product for authors, but I've had to learn the lingo so that I could teach other authors how to make their Storyline content more accessible. And that's what I've really focused on over the last year and a half or so, is learning how to Teach other people about accessibility so that, we can change this industry for the better as well. So I guess that's my long, rambly way, yeah.

Nicole L'Etoile: Okay, and for those people… for those who don't know, what are tabletop games?

Jacob Wood: Yeah, so tabletop games like Settlers of Catan, or Dungeons & Dragons, these are the types of games that you literally play on a table, as opposed to a video game with a controller in your hand. What I love about them, is that they are community-based, so you often sit down with a bunch of friends around a table, you put your devices away, and you imagine together. But the other thing that I really like about them is that because they are a physical thing that you can touch and control, you can also adapt and accommodate them to your own needs without needing to learn how to program and without having to crack open some code in order to… build accessibility layers on top of a video game, for instance.

So, that's why I'd gotten more into tabletop gaming, is because I had the control, and I could put that, accessibility knowledge to work for myself. Whereas with video games, you're kind of up to the designer, and whatever accessibility that they built into their software. Especially before the age of vibe coding, where now that might be a slightly different story. But certainly in 2010, when I got my start, It was much easier to make adjustments for myself, with physical goods.

Nicole L'Etoile: Hmm. You know, and two things that I hear coming, just maybe our listeners are… why they're here, is you said agency and you said control, right? And so, you know, what was the importance to you about agency for yourself? And then, in that experience of realizing that you didn't have that, maybe, or you didn't have that control, getting… taking that back, and then is there something about wanting to give or put the control back in the designer's hands? So, like, what is the… this… this… theme about control and agency that's so important. And then, for the person who's listening, you know, if we're talking about that one person out there, maybe in an organization, or that one freelancer, consultant who's trying to do this work.

You know, maybe they can relate to the agency and control.

Jacob Wood: For sure, those are great questions. For me, the agency really comes down to being able to do things without having to, A, disclose a disability to somebody, and B, put my control in somebody else's hands. When I was working at Wells Fargo and doing my onboarding training, I couldn't… complete most of the courses by myself. I had to actually have one of the banker coaches, which is like a team lead, come over and sit down next to me, and read the content to me, and click the buttons for me, while I… processed the information in my head and gave them answers that I wanted them to click. I had no control. If they had clicked the wrong button, I wouldn't know it. And. It also took just an inordinate amount of extra time.

I was two weeks later than the rest of my peer cohort getting onto the job because I couldn't just sit there and do the thing myself. I had to wait for somebody to be available. So those types of things really matter to somebody who's disabled. And, giving them a sense that they actually own their life again, and not being sort of left in the passenger seat when they should be driving. In terms of taking back the control and giving that to the designer. I think it's really freeing to know that you can create content that anybody can use, because it means that you're not contributing to somebody else's sense of. sense of non-belonging. I don't know what the word would be there. Feeling left out, feeling excluded.

When you create content, and you don't think about accessibility from the start, you are literally choosing to exclude other people. The people that you're not even thinking about are the people who are being excluded every day. And nobody really wants that. But that's what's happening. And it's not only costing companies money, but it's also costing people their dignity. And so, teaching designers how to create accessible content is putting the power in their hands to help everybody else around them maintain their dignity.

Nicole L'Etoile: Yeah, so.

Jacob Wood: I think it really empowers.

Nicole L'Etoile: Yeah, and so for those who are feeling as if, you know, people just don't care, they're not listening, they're not making the time for this, I think that that can feel, it can feel almost, you know. the opposite of empowering, or having control, or agency, and it's the… that feeling of taking that away, and excluding someone's, from the experience. So I think, yeah, I think there's a lot about that agency and control. And then, you know, you talk about, exclusion, and I think that's where I come to this from, is that really this… this… core belief that, being excluded does not feel good, right? And that whether it's every day, in learning, in your job, in your social life, and just in general, being excluded doesn't feel good.

And, and if you've ever sat on that excluded side. You know how that can be so, honestly, you know, Important or detrimental to someone else's health and mood and, it just, you don't want to be the person who's excluding, right?

Jacob Wood: Right.

Nicole L'Etoile: So yeah, and I think for me, I came to this work with that mindset and that core belief. I really, really was passionate about it when I had started working with a team, when there was some pushback internally. So, you know, I was that one person on a team where, it felt like. you know, you and I have talked about this, like, where some people have said, you know, well, how accessible do we need to make this? Is it accessible enough? And… And having this real gut instinct of. This just doesn't align with how I feel about accessibility, right? It doesn't fit with my core belief. And if I participate, if I stay on this team, if I continue to work in this environment, I am just abandoning my own beliefs.

So I, you know, I wonder about all of our listeners out there. Who, could be feeling pretty lonely themselves in the job and in the role, right? Or feeling pretty exclude, excluded on their, because they believe something that maybe somebody else doesn't, and that's really hard.

Jacob Wood: That is really hard. So what is your origin story then? Why, why is not excluding people so important to you?

Nicole L'Etoile: You know, I don't know if we've talked about this, or I've shared it, and maybe I've said it in different conversations, so I… I remember very early on, as a young girl, I grew up in a. the suburbs of Long Island, New York, in, you know, a typical, typical town, and I lived in a horseshoe. And so, and we had lots of kids, right? It was the 80s, it was, you know, a little bit early in the 80s, mid-80s. And everyone would go to someone's house to play or, you know, they'd be out in the street and you'd be playing kickball or wiffle ball or whatever it was. There were some times where, you know, at that point, believe it or not, you knew where everybody was because all the bicycles were on the front yard.

And so, I just have this, you know, this core memory of. going around the neighborhood and seeing, like, all the bikes at one kid's house, and being like, I didn't get invited to that. And then going, you know, me, I would just go up to the front door and knock on the door and be like, hey, can I come play? And I would be told, no, you cannot come in and play. We don't want to play with you. And I, you know. it just stuck with me. I mean, here I am, almost turning 50, still talking about it, right? Like, it's just something that, that feeling. And so… Through my career, I never thought, hey, This was super important to me, because I, you know, I was a schoolteacher. I was a school principal. I ran professional development.

I was very driven to do good work, specifically transition to working with adults. And wanting to help adults build skills, So that they can. Create and improve. whatever circumstance you're in, right? A new opportunity, a new skill can lead to a new job, that new job could lead to new opportunities, and it can improve your life in general, right? Like, I truly believed in education. You know, for me, I'm a first-generation college student, it was very important to me, that… I help and do and do that work. And then what I think all these things just started to come together, and it is, I think it's a middle age thing. So if any of the listeners are out there in the middle age, you just kind of you start to put together all of your history and you you start working in this field, and then you start to wonder, I may have a hidden disability that I didn't know.

So then you go on a different journey, you know, and and so all of these things. Can be compounded into this. This belief and this, this drive to want to do this work so that, one, those who do this work. We do it for a reason. Whether we have a disability, whether we know someone who has a disability, right, it's very personal. And it can be very lonely. The work can be lonely and hard and difficult. And then also there are people that need access so that they're not alone. And that they don't feel… Like, they can't… improve their skill sets and their lives, right? So, yeah. So that's my… that's my story. Part of it.

Jacob Wood: Sure. I'm sure we'll draw out even more of that as our episodes go on. But I… really appreciate about the way that you tied all of that together. The experience of being excluded, like you said, really doesn't feel good. And sometimes those little moments in our lives, it doesn't seem like it should be anything to some people, but sometimes those little moments matter, and they can impact your life for a very long time.

Nicole L'Etoile: Hmm.

Jacob Wood: And, you know, I had one of those moments myself when I was… I was standing on a street corner during my orientation and mobility training. Which, for those of you who don't know, when a blind person first learns how to use a cane, they go through orientation and mobility, or O&M training, and we learn how to get around the city streets without having to rely on other people to guide us around. So if you see a blind person just confidently walking down the sidewalk. It's probably because they've had their O&M training already. So, I was such a nervous and shy person. I refuse to ever even pick up a telephone and call somebody, because I didn't know what they were going to say on the other end, and I would just get in my head about it, and not want to bother somebody else with my problems.

Even if that was just, like, I need to call and order pizza. I hated it. So I was in my O&M training, and I had to get to a local library. And I knew it was, like, 3 blocks away from the train stop that I had gotten off at. This was in downtown Portland. And I did not want to stop and ask for help, but I also didn't know which street corner I'd landed on, and I needed to get a sense of my direction. I remember looking around and seeing everybody moving so fast around me, and I'm thinking, I don't want to stop one of these busy people to ask them for help. But eventually, I came to somebody else who was just, like, standing on the street corner, and I was like, well, that person's not going anywhere, so I'm gonna ask them, because if I'm going to bother somebody the least, it's gonna be this person.

And I asked him where he was, and he's like, I'm sorry, I'm not from around here, I don't know.

Nicole L'Etoile: Okay.

Jacob Wood: [laughs]

Nicole L'Etoile: Why he's standing there. Yes.

Jacob Wood: And so I was like, well, that's okay, like, I know this city, if you can just tell me what street corner I'm on, like, I'll be able to find out where I'm at. And he told me the names of the street corner based on the signs that were there, and I knew exactly where I needed to go from there, and he's like, you wouldn't happen to know where to get… how to get to the mall from here, would you? And I was like, yeah, it's like… Three blocks that way, take a left, you can't miss it. So, like, the moment I was able to step up and talk to somebody. I learned that I could share something that I have with somebody else.

Nicole L'Etoile: Oh, yeah.

Jacob Wood: Whether they were disabled or not, didn't matter. In that situation, with him not knowing where he was going, he was just as lost as I was. But I had something to share to him.

Nicole L'Etoile: Excellent.

Jacob Wood: And, that… Really helped me feel, like I could give something back to the world. And, like. I could… Choose to include people. Even when I don't necessarily feel included myself.

Nicole L'Etoile: Hmm.

Jacob Wood: And that was such a huge revelation for me that's carried forward with me for this 20 something years now, is being able to stop and assess what skills do I have to offer to the world, even if it seems really minor right now.

Nicole L'Etoile: Okay.

Jacob Wood: And I don't feel like I have to have all of the answers. I don't need to be the expert. If I know how to do something and you don't, then… that's something I can share. And that's…

Nicole L'Etoile: power and agency in your right. So you found some agency and some way to bring control. Yeah.

Jacob Wood: Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. So, I think that's the other part of the origin story that. I didn't have before that point.

Nicole L'Etoile: Hmm.

Jacob Wood: And if I hadn't had that one little moment in my life, I don't know when or where I would've learned that lesson. So standing on a street corner in downtown Portland, feeling lost.

Nicole L'Etoile: Hmm.

Jacob Wood: Changed the trajectory of my entire life, I think.

Nicole L'Etoile: Yeah, yeah, so these moments, like, these little, like, these little micro moments of our own personal experiences, whether they're, you know, in, like, a personal or professional space. I think we all want to, one, every adult… I've never met an adult that doesn't want agency, that doesn't want, right, some… to be empowered, or… and to ideally help others in some way. And so I think our goal here, right, with this podcast is to share a little bit about ourselves as we get started so you know who we are and what we're talking about and why we're talking about it. And then also to, to share with you and to, help make some sense of what it is that you're trying to accomplish, right? Like, give some tips and some strategies. And again, like you said, we don't, we don't have all the answers. We don't know, but we do have some of this knowledge and some of the experience, and we also just had the drive and the want, the interest to do this, right?

Anybody could really pop on, grab a microphone, talk about anything that's important to them. But this was really important to both of to us. to try to find another way to help those who are trying to do this work. Because, right, so it's that ripple effect of, you know. Help one, help another, help another, and we can… we can get there. So, is there anything else that we should share with, our audience as we get started?

Jacob Wood: I think that's it for me as far as my origin story goes, but I do think that as we continue this podcast and as you continue listening. I'd really like just to encourage everybody to pause and reflect, maybe after every episode, about what it is you can take away in your day-to-day life, because what we really want to do, I think, is to provide practical tips. And that's what we're going to share, is how you can Move accessibility out of just, like, the thing that has to be done into the thing that, you want to do in order to make an impact on people's lives.

Nicole L'Etoile: Yeah, and maybe we'll have some fun along the way, you know? I mean, I think you and I like to… we like to laugh a little bit.

Jacob Wood: We.

Nicole L'Etoile: like to sometimes we like to vent. Probably me a little more than you. But we also, you know, we take it seriously, but we're also gonna have a lot of fun with it. So, we, we appreciate everyone for listening and for being here, and we're gonna, we're gonna look forward to getting out that next podcast. I think we're gonna, we're gonna talk, I'm gonna check in on your conference that you went to. Right. You just went to a conference in Chicago, no Illinois.

Jacob Wood: In Indianapolis.

Nicole L'Etoile: Indianapolis. Okay, thank you. And that was the ATD Core 4.

Jacob Wood: Right.

Nicole L'Etoile: And I have, have a couple of projects, that I want to chat about, but yeah, so we look forward to our first episode. Thanks, everyone, for listening. Yep, stay tuned.

Jacob Wood: Tune in for the next one.

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